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Don’t expect anything to go screaming higher in the short term

February 24, 2015

We apologize for the poor audio quality at the end of the interview. There have been issues with our internet today. Hopefully it will all be fix for tomorrow.

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Discussion
133 Comments
    Feb 24, 2015 24:16 AM

    HA HA HA 30 $ OIL NO NO MAN !

    Feb 24, 2015 24:52 AM

    Absolutely the best series of interviews over at Kitco. Stop listening to these wrinkled old men and their fascinations for jars of pickles and ‘bottoms’

    http://www.kitco.com/news/video/show/GSA-Investor-Day-2015

      Feb 24, 2015 24:04 PM

      A SUPPER COMPANY FRANCO-NEVADA ! Thank’s Fran six !

          Feb 24, 2015 24:49 PM

          Yes – There have been a couple of good interviews on Kitco the last few days from the BMO show. There were good interviews with the CEO of Sandstorm Gold (Nolan Watson), Silver Wheaton CEO Randy Smallwood, and Rob McEwen. Check em’ out.

        Feb 24, 2015 24:22 PM

        Yes Franky. Franco-Nevada, Royal Gold, Silver Wheaton, and Sandstorm Gold are fantastic business models as the “Steaming companies”.

        Maybe we can change your name to Franky-Nevada in honor of them! : – )

      fran you are correct , there are some great spots concerning GSA……

    Feb 24, 2015 24:55 AM

    Does Doc use the VXX to trade volatility? I too believe we will see volatility trough and then head higher within the next 3-7 days. Any thoughts?

      Feb 24, 2015 24:06 PM

      John, I use the VIXY.

        Feb 24, 2015 24:23 PM

        Aren’t we getting near a debt limit increase or debt ceiling issue in just a few days. I am surprised we haven’t heard more about it or that there hasn’t been all kinds of political posturing about it.

        Could that be what causes gold to pop for a week or two?

          Feb 24, 2015 24:31 PM

          Here is the snippet from Bloomberg from last November that has a March 15th date:

          “Congress last addressed the debt limit in February 2014 and suspended it until March 15, 2015. The U.S. government will be able to use tax receipts and intra-government payments to stave off default for at least a few months beyond that, said Shai Akabas, associate director of economic policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center in Washington.

          “It could be a decent amount beyond that point, depending on many different variables,” he said in an interview today. “There is a chance that it goes a significant period of time beyond midsummer.”

          The timing of the debt limit’s expiration matters. The March 15 date comes during the individual income-tax filing season, when government receipts are often higher than expenses. That cushion prevents the Treasury Department from needing to borrow more money.

          In addition, the government can use so-called extraordinary measures, including transfers from other accounts. In 2011, those steps staved off default for more than two months, and now that the U.S. government is running a smaller deficit, they could last even longer.

          Republican Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, who is poised to become Senate majority leader, said today he didn’t foresee a debt ceiling crisis.”

          I guess everything will go just fine in the next few weeks concerning the debt ceiling, as nobody is even discussing it anymore.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:37 AM

            A couple of years ago and then last year the debt ceiling was a big deal, the media was hyped, and then we even had a “Fiscal Cliff” that nobody wanted to go over.

            I am simply amazed at how long they’ve been able to kick the can down the road.

            The main point I am bringing up is that the debt limit date is set for March 15th and where this got things to a fever pitch in the past, now everyone is numb to the idea and nobody is even discussing the debt that the USA has on the books. Everyone seems to think things are just fine, but we are going to ask for a limit increase on our unlimited government credit card once again. Simply amazing.

    IF OIL goes to $30………….Houston and Dallas …..will be the next Detroit……..

      Feb 24, 2015 24:19 PM

      They can turn to hog hunting….

      Feb 24, 2015 24:26 PM

      If it gets that bad in Texas, then I’ll move there when the real estate market bottoms and pick Houston so I am close to the ocean.

      The break-ins and vandalism won’t be nearly as bad as Detroit, because almost everyone in TX carries.

        Yes, but everyone in Detroit carries also…….they carry off tv, sterios,computer.,jewlery

          Feb 24, 2015 24:42 PM

          True. My friend went up a year ago and said you could buy a whole block for the price of one house. I saw an article last year where a guy was trying to sell his house and some back taxes for a new I-phone. Spooky.

        DO they put those big guns in those ten Gallon hats……………….

          Hard to hid a 45 in a turban …………….

          Feb 24, 2015 24:41 PM

          No, ten Gallon hats are for storing gold and silver 😉

          Feb 24, 2015 24:43 PM

          No – everything is just bigger in Texas. The ten gallon hats are for their egos : – )

            Last time I was in Dallas , I picked me up one of those at Neimans………

            Feb 24, 2015 24:52 PM

            Yeah, You got to when you’re deep in the hear of Texas.

            Look, we have our fair share of tall hats down here in Nashville, TN.

            Feb 24, 2015 24:53 PM

            that should have said “deep in the heart of Texas”. Although the heart of TX does pump black gold through it’s veins, and if oil stays down, it will be rough on that area.

            You can send them some shine………….to hold em over………..

    Feb 24, 2015 24:47 PM
    Feb 24, 2015 24:01 PM

    Doc, nice comments.

    I agree with you that the gold market is in a narrow trading range. $1,200 dollars is holding for now and may be the new battle lines for breakouts in either direction. Going forward its going to be very interesting to see what may be a thrust event or sentiment change for higher highs in the sector.

    The oil sector has profits to be made if selective and if an investor can time entry and exits well and play the volatility.

    The general market is simply a paradox of confusion. You’re damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

    As a side note, I would not use one red cent of leverage in any of these markets going forward.

      Feb 24, 2015 24:34 PM

      Vortex, noticed your comments about the oil sector. I know some folks are bottom fishing the sector —-however, I would be careful since history teaches there is often a second leg down for oil and often a double bottom. Historically, the oil companies lag the price as far as a bottom is concerned and will bottom on the double bottom on the price of oil itself.

        Feb 24, 2015 24:37 PM

        Richard i Hope Cory don’t losses hope in GOLD ?

        Feb 24, 2015 24:11 PM

        Doc,

        I think your second leg down theory in oil is very sound and will happen. No nation is remotely trending toward economic recovery, so lower lows in oil is a very realistic assumption.

        I’m watching some great companies, but I won’t pull the trigger on oil stocks for some time to come.

        Thanks Doc, good stuff.

          Feb 24, 2015 24:15 PM

          30 $ OIL HA HA HA HA ! Vortex we will see .

    Miles Franklin…………says, Fed is buying oil, and supporting oil at these levels………today at FSN

      Feb 24, 2015 24:15 PM

      Everyone is buying oil and storing it Jerry. The Chinese are pumping it back into underground reservoirs as fast as they can get it off the ships. In the US, the strategic oil reserve is being refilled. Stockpiling is the name of the game at these prices.

        The idea is………..Supporting the price , the Fed does not store oil. If they are supporting the price, why, …why , not wait for it to go down to Doc number of $30.

          I would agree the Chinese are buying anything and everything…..with Treasury Notes.

            As far as stockpiling, for a rainy day, That is ok, when you have surplus of capital, and are not bankrupt. BUT when you have to borrow the money, and pay interest on the money you printed,,,STOCK piling is questionable.. The debt gets bigger, and become unpayable, then the creditors force you to dump assets at a loss, and you wind up with nothing. ,,Something like GREECE.

    Feb 24, 2015 24:54 PM

    Went back into oil today and got out out of xop at the close when shorts cover and it spiked up. Oil is failing to hold $50. It has been easy making money on oil but it is getting too difficult and looks like it might be time to stand aside. My Intel buy from yesterday is working well.

    Feb 24, 2015 24:55 PM

    Thank you Doc for covering Vix and WTIC. Please if you can cover vix, wtic and gold that would be great. If yo feel like gdx and gdxj would be great too

    Feb 25, 2015 25:47 AM

    Gold’s recent downtrend has slowed a bit on Wednesday morning. The longer term uptrends and other supports are turning it up a little.
    I think Doc is right because it’s a bull vs. bear battle at the moment and no-one is winning just now.
    The current channel of the recent downtrend is between about $1180 and $1220 so 1220 is needed for a breakout and 1180 needed for continiation of downtrend. Gold is up a bit today.

    To Doc, oil at $30 a barrel would give gold:oil at 40 ratio if gold stays at $1200. That is a historically huge ratio, more extreme than the 35 perhaps around 1973, just before the oil crisis broke. The ratio was 10 by 1977. The average is about 15.

    This is worrying for gold, isn’t it, unless oil rallies fairly soon. I know on a credit deflation gold: oil might be expected to be higher but 40 is a bit steep.

    Feb 25, 2015 25:58 AM

    And the envelope please:

    The Gold Promoter / Propaganda Award for today goes to none other than Gary Christenson who wrote the following recently: ……”Gold is, and has been real money for 5,000 years”.

    Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!!

    Wow….really Gary? How would you know that? Where did the information come from? 5000 years ago is a really long time. That would place the beginning of gold money at 2984 years according to you. I suggest you review the definition of what money is by the way and that might make your task of explaining this a whole lot easier.

    Or did your insight come from the bible? Old Testament maybe? Can you direct us to the quotes and then back up the statement you made with concrete evidence from archeological digs?

    Dear Gary Christenson, please enlighten the poorly informed audience at Kereport.com of what evidence you have that gold was money, let alone a currency that traded amongst the people, 5000 years ago.

    Surely there is a book written about this amazing finding and fact of yours or there are confirming archeological proofs that stand up to the scrutiny of modern scholars. A coin maybe? Do you have a coin? How about a Mesopotamian Cuneiform record stamped in clay and in the possession of a major museum collection?

    Maybe something written by Erich Von Daniken?…..ah-ha!……. so thats it….a science fiction narrative written in modern times to confirm mythological beliefs that we think transcend all times. Maybe there is a gold connection to ancient times and space aliens found in the words of modern fiction writers.

    Or maybe in the words of other gold bugs who think a casual rewriting of history in the pursuit of building a bigger audience for the acquisition of gold and silver will do just fine in your opinion? Please quote your sources if you don’t mind. Wiki will do since you obviously are not the type who likes to dig too deep and do fact checking.

    PS: Gary, please stop writing about gold if you are just going to exaggerate low quality information and promote it to the general public as though it were gospel and facts. And start backing up your statements with solid facts. That article I just read from you is one of the worst I have seen lately.

    Gold: The Good, Bad, and Truly Ugly — Gary Christensen, February 24, 2015
    http://moneytalks.net/article-and-commentary/todays-best-money-making-ideas/precious-metals/14487-gold-the-good-bad-and-truly-ugly.html

      Feb 25, 2015 25:44 AM

      Actually Gary Christenson is off by 1000 years. Actual usage is traced back to 6000 years ago, which was the fourth millennium bc or 4000 years before the birth of Christ.

      The use of gold as proto-money has been traced back to the fourth millennium BC when the Egyptians used gold bars of a set weight as a medium of exchange

        Feb 25, 2015 25:48 AM

        I am guessing you have some kind of link to offer as evidence. Or are you just making this up?

        Feb 25, 2015 25:53 AM

        Basically I am calling bullshit on this repeated myth. Either show me your proof or buzz off. He said that gold was “money” and he is wrong. Now you think you can pull the wool over my eyes by merely repeating the same stooge comments without getting any blowback.

        So spit it up or shut up.

          Feb 25, 2015 25:07 AM

          Gold might be money in some part of the world but not in the part of the world I am from. It was considered fortune in the level of diamonds. It did not circulate as money in the Orient. People who had gold would make it to Buddha statue, painting religion artifacts or some kind of show of wealth or simply hide it. Silver, copper and brass was used for at least 4200 years of recorded history. People call brass gold before ~300BC and used it as currency since it looked similar to gold. It later stopped being used. Even some historians thought it was gold but proved to be false. There has never been that much gold around. Silver has been standard currency and everything is converted to a unit of silver (两), which is around 37 grams. I think it took around a thousand copper coins to worth a 两 of silver.

          Orient was major part of world econnomy just a few years back. I can say that silver has been money for 4000-5000 years but not gold. I can also safely say this is documented. Chinese history was very well recorded.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:15 AM

            Thanks Lawrence. I appreciate your commentary and honesty with regards to gold.

            Lawrence………..China did not have any gold because Solomon had all the gold.

    Feb 25, 2015 25:56 AM

    Don’t be so hostile. Please. What is the source of your hostility towards me?

    Do your own research, I won’t spoon feed you. But here is some interesting artifacts. Documented with pics.

    Millennial Monies

    Human beings have coveted silver and gold consistently for more than 6000 years.

    Gold treasures have been found dating back to as early as 4000 BC in a burial site in Varna, Bulgaria (from the ancient Thracian civilization).

    By 3600 BC, Egyptian goldsmiths began melting gold ores to separate the metals inside. They used blowpipes made from fire-resistant clay to heat the smelting furnace.

    As early as 3100 BC we have evidence of a gold-to-silver value ratio in the code of Menes, the founder of the first Egyptian dynasty. In the Menes code it is stated “one part of gold is equal to two and one half parts of silver in value.”

      Feb 25, 2015 25:00 AM

      Sorry Dave but you are part of the problem in the gold bug community and you are equally engaged in propaganda when you make those assertions. You wrote “The use of gold as proto-money has been traced back to the fourth millennium BC when the Egyptians used gold bars of a set weight as a medium of exchange”.

      And I am saying “prove it” or stop repeating mythology.

        Feb 25, 2015 25:07 AM

        Bird: Did someone tinkle on your corn flakes this morning?

          Feb 25, 2015 25:20 AM

          No Dai but the gold bugs need to own up to their dishonesty. When one of them makes a statement the others parrot the line no matter how inaccurate it is. Those are just sheep in my eyes and they do not make an effort to seek the truth about what they profess to be fact. Gold was not money 5000 years ago and anybody he insists it was is probably manipulating.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:26 AM

            Doesn’t give you the right to demoralize, name calling and using vulgarity
            against a fellow forum poster who never said anything disrespectful.

            No excuse. ITS VERY MALICIOUS BEHAVIOR.

        BIRD………….Matthew 10 : 9 & 10……………….
        9. Provide neither gold , nor silver, nor brass in your purse.
        10.Nor scrip for your journey……
        this was spoken by Jesus, to the disciples about 33ad……this shows there was coinage used to transact business……in the form of gold and silver.

      THANK YOU DAVE……for your input………..appreciate…………………..j..
      always glad to hear someone who can use the bible……………

    Feb 25, 2015 25:03 AM

    Grow up be a man. Do some research. Find the truth.

    You are so angry, you can’t do a simple google search? Must I cater to your desires to prove a point?

    Fact is, you are wrong. I am right. End of story. Search, I am confident you will find what I am saying to be correct.

      Feb 25, 2015 25:09 AM

      So sorry Dave but if you make a statement here that amounts to a bald faced lie in the opinions of more knowledgeable people then you need to back it up or take it back. It is not my job to prove your points however pitiful and non researched they might be.

      So basically you have nuthin? I figured as much. 🙂 Enjoy the rest of your day at the fantasy factory.

      Feb 25, 2015 25:35 AM

      Ephesians 5:6-7

      Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them.
      ————-
      And that is why I said to bugger off if you lie.

        Feb 25, 2015 25:41 AM

        BIRD……YOU NEED SEVERAL INOCULATIONS….

        YOU ALSO NEED TO BE INSTITUTIONALIZED !!!!!

        Fellow forum posting members are dictated by you what they can post.

        WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE.

        You order people around like they are lap dogs

        GET OUT OF HERE BIRD AND TAKE TIME OFF.

        Look at the way you treat Dave. You’re out of your mind.

        GO GET HELP !!!!!

          Feb 25, 2015 25:57 AM

          Make Bird the new site moderator.

          You can attack innocent people making respectful comments.

          Attack them with vulgarity , name calling, persecution, selfish behavior,
          inconsiderate and maliciously demoralizing an innocent poster who never
          fired one shot.

          OUT OF CONTROL BEHAVIOR. VERY MALICIOUS.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:00 AM

            The more I fight gold bugs the virulent they become. Like your post shows me.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:04 AM

            You have no business disrespecting innocent posters
            name calling and using volgarity against them.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:30 AM

            “Virulent” describes your ignorance, Birdman. The only “truth” you respect is the kind that suits you. Which means you’re left to create your “truths” using nothing but your imagination.
            There’s not a rational, logical, or principled bone in your body.

            -Chartboy

            Feb 25, 2015 25:08 AM

            Your posts are typically full of emotionally charged and loaded words yet short of conversation on the subject matter. I seek the truth. You seek to find only what supports your simple beliefs.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:33 AM

            Ha ha, complete nonsense. You’re the guy that thought I should “speak from the heart” instead of giving facts, LOL. What an artsy fart! That’s why you post massive, fact-free comments!
            That’s from the heart btw, do you respect me now? 🙂 LOL…………………….

            Feb 25, 2015 25:15 AM

            The topic is whether or not gold was money 5000 years ago. Not one of your posts touches on that because all of them are pointless attacks. I think I know why too. You are threatened that your gold-centric mythology is under attack but have nothing of substance to prove I am incorrect.

            🙂

            Feb 25, 2015 25:24 AM

            It is heartening that you believe what you do. It would suck to find myself in agreement with someone of your “character.”

            There’s always a bright side…

            Feb 25, 2015 25:39 AM

            In a deflationary world the price of a good quality men’s suit will decline in price substantially. An ounce of gold will still buy exactly one just as it has for two thousand years (which is an argument you gold bugs often make to prove gold holds its value).

            Can you guess what that means for the price of gold though?

            Feb 25, 2015 25:46 AM

            In a deflation everything declines against real money. You’re a fool if you think the king of imaginary money, the dollar, is exempt.
            In a deflation, counterparty risks become suspect and are avoided. The FRN has huge counterparty risk.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:22 AM

            Please list the counterparty risks to dollars Matthew in the context that it will hurt the dollars value. You say they are huge so I imagine you have some insights on the topic. I think you will be wrong though because dollars should soar at the point there is an economic eruption or major dislocation in the markets. You assume it will decline but are probably not aware of how the dollar functions as a crisis holding. Personally, I would hold US dollars ANYDAY over gold because it will be a far better hedge against financial calamity for the foreseeable future.

            By the way, gold did not rise in value during the last major deflation. It was artificially revalued versus the dollar which supported its price. Secondly the government bought all the mine production that was available which put a floor under golds price. So gold is NOT a deflation hedge. Neither can you expect any government to repeat what happened in the US in the 1930’s so there will be no salvation as gold declines. If commodities continue to fall then gold will go down with them.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:42 AM

            Um, the Fed itself, Birdman, is the major counterparty risk. Hello? The FRN belongs to the Fed and it can do to it what it pleases.

            Re: “Personally, I would hold US dollars ANYDAY over gold because it will be a far better hedge against financial calamity for the foreseeable future.”

            Lol. People like you who chose dollars over gold when markets and the economy peaked in ’99/’00 have suffered huge declines in purchasing power AND missed huge gains for gold. Wise move. 😉

            Feb 25, 2015 25:35 PM

            Here is a riddle Batman…what was gold in 1980 and what was the DJIA?

            Which do you think was better?
            ——————–
            Basically gold has not even doubled since then but the Dow is up what…..16 times. You bet on the wrong horse and lost buddy. Actually you are still losing because markets have been rising for more than 6 years straight but gold has been in decline more than 48 months.

            You are singing an old tune nobody sane wants to hear anymore.

            Btw…I am pretty impressed by your poor grasp of grade 5 math.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:04 PM

            And the price of tea in China is what?

            You’re the genius that bought gold at the top in 1980! Lol……………………………………

            Feb 25, 2015 25:32 PM

            That is not exactly true. I began acquiring seriously in the mid Sixties which was well before any bubble developed however I did also buy all the way up to the top. I had a very substantial amount of both gold and silver. Far more than you can imagine i will bet. My tactic at the time would be referred to these days as averaging up, btw. But then my reasons for buying all through the phase were probably quite similar to Al’s today and I was much less concerned with daily prices than to keep a goal in mind.

            Not that you deserve an explanation because I think you are a twit.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:37 PM

            Come to think of it maybe I am too hard on you because you are a lot younger than me. But I literally saved my surplus cash in silver and gold, much of which I picked up at face value. I suppose you never had that opportunity so would not know just how big a pile of precious metals one could acquire through a regular accumulation and savings regime.

          Feb 25, 2015 25:59 AM

          Emotionalism and poppycock. Give me facts or accept I am correct.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:01 AM

            Get out of my sight Bird. Time you take a leave of absence.

            NOW GET !!!!

        No one will deceive you if you do your own work…..and read what is already written, get inspired by the spirit and not man…………

        I have quoted scripture from THE BOOK OF MATTHEW.10….AND GENESIS 2….above…for those debating money……..and gold…………….j

          Feb 25, 2015 25:29 AM

          When was the OT written Jerry?

            The books of the OLD TEST……are by several persons…..over a long period of time.

            IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD……………..

            the problem with your direct comment……..is you will not be able to prove your point, and even BILL NEY could not total debate KEN HAM……….science(man made) vs truth.
            You will believe what you want, and I will believe what I know. The TRUTH shall make you FREE.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:40 AM

            OK Jerry, then when was the first of the OT books written? Give me a year.

            Remember……. “books”., books is a later assemble of written information from scrolls, and tablets …..etc. from many authors .

            In the beginning ……..was the WORD……

            Genesis……….the first book of the bible…….or of the OLD TEST
            The name Genesis………is taken from the Septuagint. The Septuagint is a Greek translation made of the OLD Testamont in Alexandria at the order of Ptolemy Philadelphus at about 285 to 247 BC.
            Genesis is a book of beginnings and the families of the beginning of creation.
            Genesis means “origin” “source” “birth”. The meaning closest to that meaning is “birth”.
            It is derived from the Greek verb gennao, which means to beget or give birth to.
            Genesis is the book of beginnings and sources, but more particularly it is the book of births this is often overlooked. It is the book of generations.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:32 AM

            So not 5000 years ago. Thank you.

            READ IT AGAIN…………it says from the BEGINNING……….THANK YOU.

          AND the BEGINNING is more than 5000 years……..

      Feb 25, 2015 25:20 AM

      +100 Dave

        Feb 25, 2015 25:57 AM

        OK ChartBoy, since you give a plus 100 then you can provide the evidence that Dave seems to be missing. I am assuming your strong support for him is based on your belief he is correct in his bald assertions.

        Or will you get a big fat failing grade today too? Show us what you have.

          Feb 25, 2015 25:59 AM

          GET OUT OF HERE BIRD. Your malicious and malfunctioning person.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:00 AM

            BEGONE TROLL!

            Feb 25, 2015 25:02 AM

            Name calling again. Leave Bird.

            Your malicious

            Feb 25, 2015 25:04 AM

            The only thing worse than liars are deceivers.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:06 AM

            What ???? A lie…. is deceit.

            Go take time off. Your losing it.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:24 AM

            Re: “The only thing worse than liars are deceivers.”

            Lol!!! Since Birdman is this site’s “best” liar/deceiver, he ought to know!

            Feb 25, 2015 25:31 AM

            Ordinarily I skip over all your posts HH because I consider them the equivalent of oratorical pollution on this site and a distraction for everybody. But since you are interjecting so forcefully today I might also add that most people agree with me on this.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:38 AM

            Bird, your opinion is redundant and meaningless coming from
            someone as low as you.

            If anyone does not meet your gold bear standards you
            immediately discredit them as a human being.

            A low form of character and very cowardly to boot.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:56 AM

            Reason why to skip over them is cowards can’t handle
            the truth.

            Gold is true form of wealth. You will discredit that until
            you are kicked off this site permanently.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:04 AM

            Proves you are blinded by your own darkness Bird.

            DEBT IS NOT WEALTH

            Its you thats the deceiver. THATS ALL YOU DO HERE.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:07 AM

            “DEBT IS NOT WEALTH”
            +1

            Pay attention Bird.

    Feb 25, 2015 25:20 AM

    Alright you damn fool. I will spoon feed you then.

    Some 4,600 years before the Common Era, a mysterious civilization emerged on the shores of lakes near the Black Sea—not far from the modern-day city of Varna. For its time, this Varna culture was amazingly advanced, both culturally and technologically. The first evidence of its existence was found in lovely ceramics, bone and stone idols and copper tools. Then an astounding chance discovery came to light, making headlines around the world. Just a few kilometres from Varna was a Copper Age necropolis (cemetery) containing the oldest gold objects ever discovered. Between 4600 and 4200 BCE, long before Mesopotamia or the Egypt of the pyramids, goldsmithing first began on the shores of the Black Sea, in the land that is today Bulgaria. Study of the 300 or so graves in the Varna I necropolis showed that there was a highly structured society here in the Copper Age. The richest graves contained gold diadems and sceptres, heavy copper axes and spear points, elegant finery and richly decorated ceramics. A large amount of shell jewellery was evidence of trade with the South, for the molluscs in question were from the Mediterranean.

    http://www.pacmusee.qc.ca/en/exhibitions/varna-worlds-first-gold-ancient-secrets

    New research, archaeologists and historians say, has broadened understanding of this long overlooked culture, which seemed to have approached the threshold of “civilization” status. Writing had yet to be invented, and so no one knows what the people called themselves. To some scholars, the people and the region are simply Old Europe.

    The little-known culture is being rescued from obscurity in an exhibition, “The Lost World of Old Europe: the Danube Valley, 5000-3500 B.C.,” which opened last month at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. More than 250 artifacts from museums in Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania are on display for the first time in the United States. The show will run through April 25.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01arch.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    Human beings have coveted silver and gold consistently for more than 6000 years.

    Gold treasures have been found dating back to as early as 4000 BC in a burial site in Varna, Bulgaria (from the ancient Thracian civilization).

    By 3600 BC, Egyptian goldsmiths began melting gold ores to separate the metals inside. They used blowpipes made from fire-resistant clay to heat the smelting furnace.

    As early as 3100 BC we have evidence of a gold-to-silver value ratio in the code of Menes, the founder of the first Egyptian dynasty. In the Menes code it is stated “one part of gold is equal to two and one half parts of silver in value.”

    http://www.jmbullion.com/investing-guide/james/gold-silver-history/

      Feb 25, 2015 25:26 AM

      Thanks for making the effort Dave. Everyone appreciates that. The article suggests that shells or perhaps copper were used as trade items although that is not explicit. There is nothing conclusive here about gold actually being money though. That is what we are discussing. Everyone is already familiar with the Pharaohs for example and how gold was revered and accumulated by the elite but even in ancient Egypt it was not used as a currency until relatively modern times.

      Gold was not money 5000 years ago,

      Feb 25, 2015 25:17 AM

      Excellent Dave, but of course it’s all lost on the fool.

    Feb 25, 2015 25:19 AM

    Bird,
    The whole financial system is underpinned by gold. All wars are faught to capture gold ( and now oil and food commodities )
    The struggle for Kings and oligarchs to control currency through fiat means is always a short term play. Money is and will always be backed by gold. The good faith and credit fiat bs is about to go bye bye.

      Feb 25, 2015 25:26 AM

      Sorry Chartster but that is nonsense. Wars may be fought for access to resources or differences over land borders but they are never fought with the singular objective of gold. Name me a war that was declared in such a way. With the exception of Spain seizing precious metals in a warlike fashion from Native South American Indians who did not even know they were an adversary of the Spanish Crown you will find nothing.

        Feb 25, 2015 25:43 AM

        Bird,
        Every war is about gold and other commodities. Or over the control of the currency, which is about the gold.
        Most Americans don’t realize that even the Vietnam war was about gold.

          thanks Chartster……….Interesting concerning Vietnam……………

            concerning Vietnam…….since the French were in there first,,,,was that their objective or was that the primary objective of the Johnson Admin……thanks j……

          Feb 25, 2015 25:11 AM

          Yeah, yeah, yeah…you said that already. Where is your link?

            Feb 25, 2015 25:29 AM

            Throw the Bird several links.

            He should be chained down so he is not a threat to anyone.

            D.A. lol

            Feb 25, 2015 25:35 AM

            As if you care what’s in a link! You’ll just declare the information to be wrong instead of EVER humbly saying thank you.

            Feb 25, 2015 25:56 AM

            GOLD TO DA MOON…ALICE…

            Does that bother you Bird.

            Do wimps become enraged by it..

    Feb 25, 2015 25:32 AM

    Gold bullion is considered money in Canada. You bring a bullion bar or coin to the foreign exchange desk or bullion desk in any bank in Toronto, and you can have it exchanged for $CAD with no taxes. You can also buy bullion or bullion coins paying no tax, or keep them in a safe deposit box and pay no royalty. You would pay capital gains if you held them in an investment account.

      Feb 25, 2015 25:28 AM

      Have Canadian Banks been in business for five millenia though?

        Feb 25, 2015 25:35 AM

        Not for Whippin Boys like you.