Minimum Wage, Maximum Stupidity
Minimum wage idiocy is sweeping the country yet again
The minimum wage should be the easiest issue to understand for the economically savvy. If the government arbitrarily sets a floor for wages above that set by the market, jobs will be lost. Even the Congressional Budget Office admits that 500,000 jobs would be lost with a $10.10 federal minimum wage. Who knows how high the real number would be?
Yet here we go again with the “Raise the minimum wage” talk at a time when unemployment is still devastating much of the country. The number of Americans jobless for 27 weeks or more is still 3.37 million. And while that’s only half the 6.8 million that were long-term unemployed in 2010, most of the other half didn’t find work. Four-fifths of them just gave up.
So, good economics and better sense would say, “make employment cheaper.” More of anything is demanded if the price goes down. That would mean lowering the minimum wage and undoing a number of cumbersome employment regulations that drive up the cost of jobs.
But then as H.L. Mencken reminded us years ago, “Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.” Which means the illogical case made by Republican multimillionaire businessman Ron Unz is being taken seriously.
chris, why would raising the minimum for a burger flipper nececitate an increase for other positions?
Not that Im saying that would be a negative thing, but other than human nature of “how come he makes a much as me? Im more valuable than him”
Why would a increase be neccasary?
I guess I just don’t understand this desire to keep people from earning a living.
Chris, economics really isn’t about money, its politics, a tool used by those in power to implement their goals.
Rothchild understood this, that’s why he doesn’t care who makes the laws.
BB, people with skills will also demand a raise. Like you said, he views himself as more valuable because he brings a certain skill to the table that is needed in society. For example, a plumber. A plumber is more valuable than a burger flipper. That how it’s always been.
I am in the camp of those who believe that the wage is not the problem. The problem lies in the fact that there is so much currency out there that is has made the dollar worthless. Think about: 50 years ago only the man of the family worked; and he could afford two cars, a house, a wife and two children, a summer vacation, maybe a summer house. Now two people work and they can’t afford the basics. I know plenty of folks that make a combined income of $60,000 -$80,000, and they still can’t save any money because the basics eat up most of their income.
BB, I am all for a basic living wage, but with the system we have now, it cannot be achieved, since the whole system is a scam of epic proportions.
I agree with you guys, I could play devils advocate tho.
I probly understand the issues as well as anyone else, and free market will ultimately determine the wages. givin a long enough timeline.
I just kinda like this idea of raising the wages, this would increase velocity and create some inflation.
Not that we have any say but money going to the low earners might work better than money going to high earners.
The argument that Walmart would still be imensly profitable and potentially increasing profits with the benefit of people earning enough to live just sounds good to me. (less government support required etc)
what we have been doing isn’t working for most people, maybe time to think “out of the box”.
Geez, bb, the market is best for setting the price of anything, including labor. Supply and demand! Prices cannot be set arbitrarily/politically (uneconomically!) by a central authority without causing problems (like shortages).
And that is why the free market has determined that the living wage in my part of Africa is less than two dollars a day and good quality t-shirts that those factory workers make sell for twenty bucks in the US but cost a mere 2 dollars here. Same with shoes. Hell it is the same with beef where here it currently costs less than half what you guys pay. That is the free market at work. You sure you like that system?
There should be no minimum wage at all, depression or not.
Matthew, I have to respectfully disagree. Minimum is need to some extent. If you don’t have a minimum wage employers will take advantage of you. Do you want to work for a dollar an hour? I don’t think so.
Nonsense, Chris. Businesses respond to market pressures. They compete for labor just like anything else. They will pay up happily for employees that are valuable and make them money. Forced wage hikes will either be passed on to the consumer or result in fewer jobs. Or both.
Why are you not offended by the idea that some bureaucrat should be able to tell you what you can and cannot accept for payment?
The socialist politicians would be completely out of a job if the foolish masses new anything at all about economics. They pander to their ignorance.
I want to say that raising the minimum wage at this stage of the game is useless. And I agree with your comment the wage hikes will be passed on to the consumer. We are on the same page on that. Matthew, you fail to understand that not everybody has a skill to contribute to society. Some people only have their physical labour and sweat to give, and there is nothing wrong with that. 60-70 years ago these people worked in factories and got paid a decent wage. In today’s economy where are you going to place these people? We’ve offshored all of those jobs. The minimum wage protects these type of workers. Now that doesn’t mean these workers should be getting paid the same as an individual who has a specific set of skills. But they deserve to earn enough money to afford the basics.
Regarding your comment about being ruled by bureaucrats: To hell with them . If you’re smart enough you can avoid these fools and their rules for the most part. That is if you don’t mind breaking a few laws, like I do. But Matthew you sound like a person who values his freedom, therefore I doubt you have any issues in breaking laws that infringe on your freedom.
mat, economics is more about politics than it is about money.
we capitilists, low wages = good profit, good for shareholders, it is in the companies interest to keep wages down.
at least that’s how they see it.
the Walmart example is good because they could raise the wages without raising the price of product and still be hugly profitable and potentially increase profits all without raising prices.
so, nothing to pass on to consumers.
this argument would suggest there is a point when there is enough money and profit and no more is required.
unfortunately, we still have this headspace where we have to grow to be good, complete falacey. imo
Most jobs are supplied by small businesses, so Wal-Mart is not the best example. I would bet money that you have never run a business, bb. If you had, you would know that MOST businessmen work very hard and are honest. They are NOT trying to screw their workers. Profit is a must and, contrary to the belief of morons everywhere, only a GOOD thing. We owe our high living standards to profits.
Fraud and theft are problems that will always exist. Socialists have indoctrinated the sheeple with the belief that government fraud and theft is the solution.
Growth does come at the expense of prosperity. Young people planning a family should keep this in mind.
Chris, the minimum wage protects no one. Research it.
You lose your bet Mathew.
I have owned manufactureing publishing,wholesale retail etc etc really.
But that’s not the point, the point is Walmart could raise wages WITHOUT passing along price increases. This might even INCREASE their profits.
so altho Walmart might not be the best example, it is still a very good example.
Matthew, you said the minimum wage protects no one. That is bullsh*t. Listen I own a business, ok. I restore vintage rides. I used to have my shop in Newark, New Jersey until 7 years ago when I packed up in moved to Montreal, Canada. The minimum wage in Quebec is $10.35. I have ten employees and all of them receive above minimum wage. My cashier gets $12.75; my cleaner, a 17 year old who just started working for me gets $11.15; the rest of my guys get paid over $20 dollars. Are they hurting my profits, nope. Everybody is happy. Now, you say that minimum wage protects no one. Answer me this: If there wasn’t a minimum wage, what should I pay my cashier and cleaner who don’t any skills? (BTW, both of them are youngsters who go to school)
BB, Owning a business is not the same as running one. If you did run one, then you should know better. Free markets are best for all, the problem is that so many blame free markets for problems that have anything BUT free market causes.
If Walmart could increase their profits, as you suggest, don’t you think they would?
Mathew. you have completely missed the point. Your diferention between running /owning is silly as well really, of course Ive run businesses.
Again NOT the point, Walmart can INCREASE wages WITHOUT increasing prices, the added profit MIGHT come from their own HIGHER paid employees.
Walmart could at this point remain stable and theoretically profit forever WITHOUT growth and pay dividends to shaeholders as well as LIVING wages which is GOOD for the economy people nation etc etc.
This example shows that we don’t NEED to grow forever, there is a point when its “maxed” out and growing larger may actually hinder, there are books on the topic about growing too large and whatever it is(business,empire etc) crashes and implodes.
Anyway, read that “pitchfork” article, it is great out of the box thinking, remember that to do the same thing repeatedly expecting different results is insanity.
Time to try something new imo.
Btw, Chris, if there was no minimum wage, you would be paying them what they are worth –which is probably very similar to what you are paying them now. It is pure ignorance that causes people to think that government intervention is a positive thing. People make no effort to educate themselves yet that doesn’t stop them from coming to their conclusions with confidence. The fools are trying to correct government-caused problems by demanding more government. They constantly and wrongly blame “free” markets because they were programmed to.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5TS8QUJWXo
Not nonsense. You have to have a minimum wage in a welfare state. it is a necessary evil given that government hands out loads of welfare to people who do no work at all. many other reasons why minimum wage at a low level is probably necessary to combat excessive greed of corporate CEOs who would probably take $10s of millions for themselves while paying $2 per hour to their workers if they could get away with it.
Sure,Matthew.
Try working for minimum wage and attempt to purchase a home anywhere in North America.
Humans should not be exploited in a democracy and many wealthy employers will never be fair to others if they are not legislated to be.
Maximum stupidity. What all fans of government force and fairy tales have in common is ignorance. Sorry, a given job is worth what the market says it is. Businessmen cannot pay more than the market will bare without putting themselves out of business. Being born does not give any of us the right to goods or services that weren’t earned. Cooperation drives a free market not coercion. A free market elevates living standards for the most people in society. Ironically, socialists, in their quest to “fix” everything, fight for more of what makes life miserable for as many people as possible. They prove over and over again that ignorance is the root of evil.
well, we could go back to slavery Mathew, take a look at how some people live Mathew, sure how we live is up to us and the decisions we make, thing is, people are just about the dumbest species on the planet.
we are discussing working from a broken system, its not going to get “fixed” it is just going to get more and more broken, nobody will sacrifice anything to fix it, as a matter of fact people will sacrifice their own children to perpetuate this broken system, all the while complaining about it.
Humans are a stupid species.
So, our only choice is to “make a buck” and hopefully deploy those “bucks” well enough to defend ourselves.
My point is just that what we are doing isn’t working and we all looking for the big “crash” “reset” unless we are wrong.
but if we are right, maybe its time to stop doing the things that don’t work and try something else.
Of course the current system is wrong, but it is due to decreasing freedom and increasing government coercion. The system is unfair, to put it mildly, but a fair system would not result in a Ferrari in every driveway like much of the drooling class thinks.
Matt, speaking of homes. Copy-Paste the Zero Hedge link and look at what prices some homes are going for in California. The San Marino property is a doozy.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-06-30/california-housing-and-bubble-hand
LOOKING at those housing units…….tells me GOLD is way under priced……….$10,000 an oz. should be the going price………
“Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” – H. L. Mencken
Of course there should be a minimum wage. Ask anyone in the developing world. Ask the African platinum or gold miners. They will tell you. Ask a mother in East Africa who is a waitress earning 15 bucks a month for full time work serving foreigners and tourists if she might prefer a little more stability and certainty in her day to day life.
Africa’s poverty is caused by government. There is no free market there.
No free market here Matthew? Shows what you don’t know as usual. I guess that’s why they are targeting 10% GDP growth this year. It is a highly liberalized open market bristling at the seams with more projects and new investments than there is possibly time to explain. Regulation is minimal and there are strong incentives to attract foreign investors. The contribution of just one single foreign government and its investors (Israel) is estimated to be worth 4% of GDP next year. Government is not the problem. If anything they are enlightened and progressive at this time. Tax rates are low and yet they are plowing the bulk of income into roads, schools, hospitals and major infrastructure projects. This is a developing nation though and has a long way to go before it can match the power of intervention Western governments offer. It is barely computerized. You need to learn a lot more before making your usual statements that are so blindly ignorant.
Hahaha!!! “Enlightened and progressive!”
Tell me what country you’re speaking of before you launch into yet another empty rant.
Btw, is Martin Armstrong still “using your material?” Hahaha!!!!!!!
The usual display. Stunning ignorance, lack of information and no insight whatsoever. Look Matthew, any government that devotes the lions share of its revenues to public initiatives like education, essential infrastructure, health and poverty alleviation is indeed progressive. Do not confuse the lack of sufficient capital to tackle the multitude of demands with a belief that policy makers do not care or are not intent on making progress. But you stick to your Coles Notes on Africa that are decades out of date. Unlike the US there is a fast growing middle class here and a rapidly expanding business sector. How’s life in your Mom’s basement by the way?
“(A)ny government that devotes the lions share of its revenues to public initiatives like education, essential infrastructure, health and poverty alleviation is indeed progressive.”
Your cluelessness is sickeningly average. No wonder you were calling your superiors idiots the other day. Gold is obviously not the only thing that has you completely befuddled.
You didn’t answer my simple questions.
Never been out of the country, hunh?
And what country might that be?
Its your country man. Don’t you know where you live? Oh wait…you are an anarchist so you probably don’t believe in states or nations because you think you are above the laws. Just every man for himself, a loaded gun and a pile of metals. I guess when the oil runs out you will get your Mad Max fantasy. Just a matter of time.
That’s right, Matthew! And it is so simple. Just say NO to gubmint skooled goons with badges (politicians with name tags) telling business how to succeed.
He lives in his mothers basement, Wayne. Mostly he is just bluffing and BS-ing about knowledge.
First off we are not in a Depression. Secondly the minimum wage should be raised but not to some ridiculous number like $15.
JMiller, we are in a Depression. John Williams of ShadowStats has unemployment north of 20%. And I agree with him because he takes into account people who have stopped looking for work completely. Government stats ignore these individuals.
Well it must not be to bad where I live since everyone I know has a job. Plenty of job openings in the paper. A lot more than 5 years ago I can tell you that. Sorry to hear that the rest of the US is in a Depression.
I am sure there are areas in the United States that have plenty of employment. But those are few and far between. Out of curiosity, where do you live?
jmiller………what part of the country do you live?
Lancaster, PA
I am not sure that Lancaster represents the general market………….Since , Lancaster is the oldest interior cities, and is historical, and the population is less than 75,000
I question if a statement ,,,,,,,concerning plenty of jobs represents the norm…..
My quess,,,,,is that not being a major city,,,you did not experienced the flood of illegals in your area…….which was a problem in the early part of the housing boom., cheap labor replacing legal youth workers , who , should have received the jobs, inlieu of the cheap Mexican labor….I think you have a lot of AMISH IN THE AREA…….JUST MY GUESS……………
ootb,
First, I do not write any articles or have a website. Second, I think the number of people getting food stamps (SNAP) may be more a sign that the government may be a little too generous and people are taking advantage of it. I know of a number of part-timers who do not want to work full-time because they would lose their government assistance.
Concerning Lancaster, PA, it is a diverse area. Agriculture, retail stores and food establishments, tourist attractions and even manufacturing. So probably we do not get hit as hard as most of the nation. Unfortunately it is getting a little too crowded. Lancaster County has over 500,000 people and growing.
thanks……for the info……my pop. report was only for the city…..So, with a 500,000 pop. base……….that is a good sampling………appreciate the insight………j….
Unfortunately I do not believe that the 20% ShadowStats number does not accurately depict the state of the economy. I am sure there are many people who not really trying hard to look for work because they get government assistance (food stamps, housing, Medicaid ect…) and I personally know of a number of part-timers (some of the young) who do not want to work full-time because they would lose their government assistance. They know how to work the system. So the 20% plus unemployment number report by John Williams is misleading. It is not the same as the 20% plus unemployed during the 1930’s Depression. From what I have read it seems people where much worse off back then. This is why I really can not say that we are in a actual Depression. That is not to say that there are not a few areas of the country that are in some kind of a Depression but a Depression to me is something much worse than what it is now for the country as a whole.
JMILLER …do you write any articles for any publications or web sites?…….thank ….J.
Do you think the number of people who receive SNAP CARD, is any indication of a WEAK EMPLOYMENT figure?………..I think the number is 90 million , if my memory serves me correctly………………………..thanks ………………………j…………….
So what is this magic number? $13.33? How does a politician know what amount is just right? The notion is ridiculous.
Your ridiculous.
It is reasonable to ask how some politician’s guess can be preferable to the result of individuals acting freely and in their own interest. It’s funny (but not surprising) that you do not have an answer.
Matthew,
First I apologize for my comment to you about being ridiculous. I know what it is like to work for a little more than minimum wage and because of that sometimes having to also work a part-time job. I have been a janitor/custodian for the past 35 years. I am very good at it but it is very hard to find a very good paying janitor job. So I feel sorry for people who are hard workers but are in low paying jobs.
I personally believe that the Federal minimum wage should be around $9 with occasional increases because of inflation.
Thank you JMiller, but no apology necessary. Considering my first response, I had it coming. So I apologize. I apologize to Chris too for starting off with “nonsense” above.
Please understand that I am against the minimum wage because it is harmful to the economy and hurts more than helps the very people who it appeals to.
Where’s my apology?
BM, you deserve no apologies or even a shred of respect from anyone.
So predictable. I fish and you take the bait. How’s that worm taste?
Time to reload your sippy cup, Bird. Then you can tell me how you got Martin Armstrong to stop using your material. AAAAAhahaha!! ! 😮
Where is the PROOF for minimum wage AT ANY LEVEL???? Where are the equations, the data, the logical arguments that take ALL FACTORS into account? THERE ARE NONE! Minimum wagers are idolatrous; they worship gods that are deaf, dumb, and blind!
The point has nothing to do with economics.
The democrats, want to make the poor think they are on their side…..i.e. solely for vote-buying. Nothing to do with anything but corruption by the party.
I think I like the idea of raising the minimum wage, the “pitchfork” article of the owner of amazon makes the case that Walmart could raise their employees wages to $15 an hour and still be profiting 15 billion a year. The result of course is a lot of Walmart product being sold and increasing Walmart profit.
One result would be an increase in the velocity of money increasing inflation, too bad for fixed income people. On the other hand it looks like fixed income people are gonna be hurt no matter what happens.
There are numerous other benefits as well, all with minimal or zero cost to wal mart and could increase their bottom line.useing his Walmart example.
A few differant ways to look at economice issues, why not give the money to lower income people? We have a choice, give it to polititians bankers military etc, or give it to the “average” joe, hhmmmmm, well, giving it to bankers seems to be working well so maybe that’s best after all, heck, maybe we should be looking at a “maximum” wage;lol
Walmart is like HENRY FORD……….Henry, gave the factory worker a raise,but, Henry owned the food stores that the factory workers had to buy food from. Henry owned the shelter or housing in the town , where the factory worker lived……So, if Henry gave the worker a raise………Henry just got the money back, by charging higher food and shelter rates. Walmart, is similar in that people working at WALMART ,,,,,,now, get their eyeglasses, food,,,,nails done,,,coffee break money(Starbucks), gasoline money, tire repair money……..WALMART HAS it own built in money machine, they can AFFORD raise the minimum wage……..because they WALMART will get every DIME BACK.
ootb, sure, all true, but didn’t ford employees have a good living for how many decades?
didn’t the middle class drive the economy?
I know the arguments are circular, and with economics a person can find an opposite to every point.
this just goes to my point that economics is not about money, its politics.
Rothchild can work with any system, lol
Not until the unions came in………..FORD was a union buster……
But, then again the unions became corrupt
didn’t he pay them enough to buy his cars? that was his reasoning if I recall, they took the job at lower wages and ford increased them.
the creation of the middle class? some people think its the middle class that drives the economy, I agree with that.
as the “pitchfork” example, better to have 1000 people able to afford pants than one zillionare buying one pair of pants, the economy doesn’t run off rich people.
how much money did he make selling his product……..cheap advertisement dollars,,,,,,,once you get the production going…….it is cheaper by the 100s..of units.
I am sure they did not get a 50% discount.
Bb, production, NOT consumption drives a healthy economy. A free market “zillionaire” is made by producing value. The politicians and cronies that acquired their wealth dishonestly have programmed everyone to think free markets are bad.
Ford paid his workers well because they were worth it. He invested in their training and didn’t want them shopping around for a better wage. He smart enough NOT to pay for the training of his competitions’ workers!
Price-fixing is wrong and it does not work. A very small percentage of any population will ever understand this because most people are embarrassingly prone to overestimating their own competence despite having no reason for doing so.
“If you’re incompetent, you can’t know you’re incompetent. […] the skills you need to produce a right answer are exactly the skills you need to recognize what a right answer is.”
—David Dunning
http://boingboing.net/2010/05/12/confident-dumb-peopl.html
“Production, NOT consumption drives a healthy economy.” — Matthew
As usual you are incorrect. Apparently nobody informed you that the US economy (which is still the largest, deepest and most developed in the world) is better than 86% service based nor did they advise you that just 14% of employment comes from manufacturing and production. Ergo it is a service based economy that primarily revolves around consumption. And that my friend has been ongoing since 1960 when manufacturing started going into decline. So I am not sure how you missed the slideshows in your econ classes but I reckon you have been wrong for the last 54 years.
You’re a Keynesian foool. Apparently no one told YOU that you cannot spend yourself rich.
Now we know why you try to drink yourself sober.
America’s prosperity has been fueled by debt for decades. Future productivity underwrites that debt. Future wealth is being stolen from young people today while brainwashed people like you cheer. 😐
I am only speaking to the facts, not analyzing the outcomes. The fact is that the US economy is service sector and consumption driven and has been for many decades. So your statements are incorrect (as usual). You really ought to come to terms with the reality that you have been wrong about such an important subject for such a long time. But then I am not surprised since you did not even know there was more than one reserve currency. Maybe we should work on what you do know instead of what is obviously a big mystery.
LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did you copy and paste that too? Matty is so smarty…. HAHaHaHaHaHaHa!!! 🙂
The whole problem with this article is that it approaches the subject from an already-flawed backdrop of CAPITAL being the be-all, and end all. In a just society based on the values of the Bible rather than those of either Adam Smith or Karl Marx (whose capitalism and communism theses are merely two sides of the same coin) the masses of people will be able to have a living wage while the industrious upper classes are STILL able to grow businesses and profits.
I realy don’t know smith or marx, but without offence to anyone I don’t think societies should be going any where near “bible” values, or Talmud or Koran values for that matter. Huge error for positive human development as I see it.
Liberty would be a positive approach, thing is Liberty is far from understood at this point due to religious corruption. So, I don’t see Liberty taking hold any time soon either.
But since were just talkin theories, I vote for Liberty.
Without Christ, you are a slave to sin. The heart is deceitful above all things. Your own heart deceives you. Repent and believe the Good News!
nothing wrong with some good sinnin wayne, a naked woman you find pretty and desirous of afection is a good thing wayne, if someone has you convinced otherwise maybe read some other books, you been lied to.
The heart is decietfull? your telling me I shouldn’t trust myself?
Wayne, no offence but your completely befuddled, which points out clearly why we shouldn’t have anything to do with “bible” values.
Torture,pedophilia,slavery,war is wrong wayne, especially that genocide stuff,
and to be honust a decent man doesn’t need a Christ Mohamed or budda to explain that imo.
Needing someone to explain it kinda shows theres some logical reasoning lacking if you ask me, but just my opinion.
I vote for liberty, have never heard an argument or reasoning that would show in any way these gods are required.
which doesn’t mean I see no value in what they talk about.
Its just nobody listens to them, lip service is all Ive ever seen.
but, liberty, to each his own.
“Nothing wrong with some good sinning”. Response: Sorry but there is no such thing as good sinning just bad sinning.
“A naked woman you find pretty and desirous of affection is a good thing”. Response: Yes it is a good thing as long as she is your wife.
“Slavery is wrong”. Response: Slavery is not always wrong. There are certain types of slavery that are acceptable in society such as being a bond-servant. Christians are also to be bond-servants or slaves of Jesus Christ.
http://www.gotquestions.org/bondservant.html
However I know what kind of slavery you were referring to and I would agree.
“To be honest a decent man doesn’t need a Christ Mohamed or budda”. Response: There are very few decent men in this world. Almost everyone seems to think better of themselves then they should. The fact is most people are adulterers, fornicators and sodomites. These are not really decent people. They are immoral. And if you drink alcohol (like many people do) you are a “recreational” drug user, worse then pot smoker. Sorry but most parents do not set good examples for their children. Their use profanity is all too common. They let their children listen to harmful music and watch the filth that is on TV. And every mature adult I know (including non-religious ones) agree that our society is immoral today.
“Liberty, to each his own”. Response: What, freedom to pervert and destroy our society and our children? Our founding fathers would be appalled at what takes place in today’s society because of people’s misuse of freedom and liberty.
jmiller, no offence but reading your post just further showed to me we don’t need any “bible” values.
“Slavery is not always wrong?” please, give me a break or maybe just read that a time or 2, also, if you get this “bond servent” idea from the kjv you may very well find its a miss translation. The word slavery was taken out to make “bond servant etc” more acceptable, but I gotta tell ya, when you start saying slavery is not wrong? well, I think you got an issue, same a the jewish Talmud saying its ok to rape 3 year old children or the Koran saying as a reward you get to rape for all eternity.
I will never figure out how you guys cant see that.
Pediphilia,torture,rape,murder,genocide is wrong jmiller, doesn’t matter which god says its ok, its wrong.
Check your “liberty” of the american founding fathers, Jefferson in particular, he was a lier,a theif,a torturer a pedophile and a rapest, this may very well be “Christian bible values” but they are plain wrong (to decent people) and have zero to do with what Jesus talked about, (they lied and people believed) if you or anyone sees a correlation between what Jesus talked about and these sicko things, like slavery or bond servant, you are confused, you have been lied to.
I don’t know why you people don’t see it, maybe try some tanslations especially from the kjv, you might find yourself surprised. Well, belief is a funny thing, once we have one our minds defend them right or wrong tooth and nail, it even gets hard to anylys where we got them from, but that’s human nature.
No religious values, LIBERTY is the way to go. If you study it you may find liberty is exactly what Jesus was talking about, without the religion of course.
Mathew 28.20 end of the age, Jesus too shall pass. If you believe he told the truth that is, which I do. We will progress, despite ourselves.
bb………MATTHEW 28:18………and Jesus came and spake..unto them, saying ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME., in heaven and on earth.
Matthew 28:19……..GO ye therefore, and teach all nations., baptize them in the name of the FATHER, AND TO SON, AND THE HOLY GHOST. ………kjv.
Matthen 28 :20……..TEACHING. them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and lo, I AM, with you ALWAYS, even unto the end of the WORLD.
Let us start with JESUS the man……..which was foretold….than he had to come as a man. MATTHEW , MARK, LUKE AND JOHN was written for the JEWS…..and Jesus was a JEW…….that came as a MAN. to save the JEWS………..
Then , JESUS CHRIST, after the cross, which saved ALL, Jews and GENTILES.
You need to stop using and confusing the TERMS……..other wise you will be constantly at odds with the KJV……..and will continually be frustrated with the bible and with people who quote scripture out of CONTEXT………
THE BIBLE KJV………..is broken down into different sections and has a story, and an out come…………and not all the bible is written for these TIMES TODAY., but all the bible IS inspired WORD OF GOD.
EPHESIANS 6:12….kjv………..for we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickness in high places.
There is no way you will ever get the message,,,,,,,,,,,for it requires that you study to show they self approved……….and Believe………and confess ………Then the spirit will lead you…………….until then …………lost sheep……with no direction and confusion as to the OUTCOME……for GOD IS NOT A GOD OF CONFUSION . FOR MAN has fallen SHORT………and is SINFUL BY NATURE…….we have ALL fallen SHORT, bar NONE.
ootb,kjv 28.20 “world” is a mistranslation from greek, the correct translation is age.
these mistranslations that don’t get fixed are some of the clues there is something wrong with the organizations, it is fixed in the esv tho.
I don’t understand why these errors are not fixed unless it be to purpetuate dicseption,
With the years of “bible study” you think it would have been revealed long ago, but another thing is people just believe what they are told. that’s human nature.
I do understand its religion and people gotta believe something, its all ok, I would just think that people might do as much due diligence with their religion as they might with an investment for example.
I guess my point is there are enough glaring examples that these relgions are led by psychopaths and schizophrenics that reasoning should overcome.
I am in no way detracting from what jesus talked about, as a matter of fact I actually don’t hink “Christians” understand his capabilities and understanding other than to explain them with the word “god”.
Maybe these different thoughts are a reason there are over 30,000 different “christian” rellgions. Each one claiming the absolute “god inspired” truth of everything.
Except, “god” said genocide was ok, but “thou shall not kill, he loves you but will burn you for all eternity etc etc
I understand these things are justified by these religions, but it just will never make sense to me.
Simply what does make sense is “love your neighbour” or “do unto others” simple stuff, easy to see Jesus would have said this, the complicated stuff? the very fact its complicated is a clue. it doesn’t fit, something is wrong with it.
If you were to read the dhammapada for example, you would see its exactly as jesus talked, esay,peacefull etc These are the “truths” or “clues” to creation.
imo finding these different recordings enhance or expand maybe clarify what Jesus was talking about. There is no need to justify slavery and all that other horrible stuff.
“god” is love, not slavery,torture etc.
But I guess one could argue I misunderstand love itself I suppose.
Anyway, I am never going to agree with “Christian. or religious,bible values” applied to a nation, not that my opinion counts in any way.
Its all good ootb, we just disagree.
You have a valid point…but.,,,…..”World” at that that time., could have stopped for the Jews …….Jesus was not GREEK/GENTILE , He would not have been speaking GREEK BUT Hebrew to the JEWS……….., When Jesus was talking , it was to the JEWS…..it was not until AFTER THE DEATH. BURIAL RESURRECTION ,,,,,,,,that the new age could have been translated to mean age., or their time period…….The jews time period would have stopped right there and then, had the JEWS ACCEPTED JESUS A THE KING OF KINGS OR KING OF THE JEWS……..QUESTION…And AT what date, which is critical did JESUS CHRIST ….talk to PAUL,,,,,WHICH was appointed to go to the GENTILE which the Greeks were. and the GREEKS……and now we have a new time period…Where the JEWS are set aside until the END., which they will be mentioned again in REVELATIONS……..
This only adds to the confusion which is in deed confusing , since the time periods are interchanged………as well, as who the particular scriptures were written TO.,
It is not until after ACT.7, THE STONING OF STEVEN, that the conversation starts changing ……..Until PAUL, A JEW(,REMEMBER PAUL WAS KILLING THE CHRISTIANS),,, comes into the picture on the ROAD TO DEMASCUS does JESUS CHRIST speak to PAUL IN ACTS 13..JESUS CHRIST tells Paul to go see the disciples ….. ACTS 15 …PAul is to go to the gentiles. which is the new AGE.and dispensation.
Stoopid me. I did not think that time was measured differently. Please explain.
ootb, im going to have to leave the timing of events to you ootb, you would know them much better than I would.
Just a thought tho, didn’t Jesus speak Aremaic? Do you know if he was bi lingual? Makes sense he spoke Hebrew as well, but I thought his life was recorded in greek for some reason, which I alwys thought wa a little odd, I would have thought most historians would have spoken latin, tacitus for example.
On the other hand, Julian was dealing with citizens needing to be tri lingual if they wanted to serve in government posts. So maybe multi lingual was the norm?
The jews time period was dominated by the age of the ram if I recall, thus the using of the ramshorn. Jesus age is picis, thus the fish everywhere, fisherman, fish symbols etc.
I guess its possible to say end of world meaning end of age, the meaning of words do change. But when I checked the greek word, it ment age and not world.
Records also get lost due to wars,fire catastrophe etc. Thus explaining so much missing with so many religious works.
Ive heard the catholic church has done a great job at preserving records, tuff to compete with records carved in stone on pyramid walls tho.
bb…..question …did Jesus speak other language……..since, Jesus is part of the tribune .FATHER , SON, HOLY SPIRIT………he knows/knew all the languages.
Remember at the Tower of Bable , all language were created.by GOD,,, Bable or Babble,(word confusion)
was created introduced,, so no one could communicate with each other, because the people were trying to build the tower……to reach heaven to be like GOD. So, GOD came on the scene and caused the people to start talking in difference language(babble) so they could not continue to work together in their attempt to build the tower to the heavens.
bb………..here is an answer for the question concerning the GREEK.
see JOHN19:20…KJV…This title then read many read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in HEBREW, GREEK, AND LATIN………….this is the beginning of the story line for the Greeks, where it is written on the cross, for all to see.
John 19:21……….(one the sign was written)…I am King of the Jews.
If you do some history of the Greeks. ….mythologhy Homer ,DIANA ,astrology..the GODS TO THE Greeks,,,,I am not sure you will find any reference to Jesus as LORD OF LORDS, until After about 33ad. When Paul,,took the message of JESUS CHRIST to the GENTILE GREEKS…..
Your right about that as far as I know ootb, Ive seen no reference to jesus prior to his arrival, maybe a prophecy in the old testament? but thats it.
Makes sense records were kept in multiple languages due to the size of the empire.
Numerous references in the Old Testament.
Al….. …..YOU will not find the NAME” JESUS ” IN THE OLD TEST.,,only a title , who is to come.
but, I think we are saying the same thing………Plus, I was trying to make another point to bb……….and want to make sure we are most clear on this…..Because , this can get confusing , since it does make a difference WHO, AND THE EXACT NAME IS. BECAUSE IT changes,,,,,,and to follow WHO WHAT WHEN AND WHY…is were the confusing comes from in any discussion concerning “CHRISTIANITY”…….
In order to place the names correctly,,,in the different DISPENSATION …..OR TIME PERIODS,,,will go a long way in the MESSAGE that GOD gave and is giving TODAY.
If corporate leaders today ran their affairs as George F. Johnson once did, we’d have a better, more prosperous society, instead of all the wealth gravitating to fewer and fewer hands:
A few years ago now my Mom was still working at a job that she had done for a decade or so. She was paid $8 per hour and was in her mid-60’s.The owners were multi-millionaires and a lot of the profits were being stolen by the family.
On the other hand my nephew was working down the street and at 15 years of age was making $15 per hour doing manual labour for a more fair multi-millionaire.
No rhyme or reason who gets paid what but age and experience should be honored in a decent society.Getting paid $8 per hour in this day and age means that the rich get richer and they hardly need more of anything but compassion.
We are now at the end of an economic era for the US, their industry has gone largely offshore, the empire is in ruins and capital and what manufacturing is left is inflated. The debt levels are worse then you see in many third world countries.
Simple band aid solutions like raising the minimum wage will do nothing, the reality is The Western World is in denial and deep decline. We know this and so does gold. The system needs to crash in order to remove the various diseased parts. Then maybe we can cut a new stream again.
That’s right. Paraphrasing what Jack Nicholson said when he played The Joker, “This country needs an enema!”
temple, that might be the best point made today.
University student now asks:
What’s the point of going to university, into debt, taking on a more stressful job, more responsibilities, just so the higher earnings can be TAXED back to virtually the same as what the lazy can earn.
That’s the problem.
Raising the minimum wage when you are in a Depression is ludicrous. To be honest with you I think this is being done to squeeze out the remaining small businesses. One more thing: Raising the minimum wage can result in a brain drain. Let’s say you raise minimum wage to $15. A young adult will see that and say, “What is the point of going to university when I can receive the same salary without a degree.” Granted the majority of the degrees these days are of the “mickey mouse” variety, but there are jobs out there that need skilled individuals. If a burger flipper gets $15, you need to also raise the skilled individuals pay as well. The question is, can a company or individual afford that raise?